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John N McGowan's avatar

Excellent article.

I’ve come around to your idea that “tiers of play” isn’t a great descriptor from the different pieces of the overall campaign. It really is all simultaneous, whether the players take on the role of patron or I have to carry it for a while.

I think you’re also dead on with regard to war gamers often not playing patrons. I generally agree with Gary when he said that players ought to rise to that level themselves and have never warmed to assigning NPCs despite repeated efforts to do so over the course of about a year. In my experience, fiat patrons almost never produce the dynamism of natural patrons, to the point where I discontinued the practice of patron assigning altogether - players now must grow into the position over the course of play. The downside is that this is only bearing fruit after several months to years in some cases.

Your diagnosis of RPG gamer vs War gamer has explanatory power for my own experience here: I don’t have any war gamers around me, it’s all RPG people. Perhaps results would have been different if I did.

At this time, the club simply doesn’t have members of the requisite skill or interest in order to run antagonists that I’ve assigned them, but their characters have slowly begun to form up into various factions of their own and do take on an antagonistic attitude toward the others.

EDIT: I look at the publish date and realize I’ve missed many interesting things 🥲

GavinRuneblade's avatar

Great article with wonderful quotes. Yes I think people really do ignore or go right past those words of context from Gary. And yes I agree that it makes a big difference whether you recruit wargamers or rpgr's to your game.

One addition that jumped out immediately is that in my experience there's a big problem with any kind of pvp. In Dave and Gary's groups people didn't take it personally when a player ran the balrog that took out four PCs in a single encounter, or when one of the heroes became Sir Fang the vampire and a major villain.

Today, we have a real issue with griefers and trolls who pvp in order to cause hurt and ruin other people's fun. And simultaneously we have an issue with people who can't handle losing their characters. to be fair, one of Dave's players rage quit after dying to a troll so it's not totally a new phenomenon, but it's far more common. Putting these two together, faction play, with more than one PC faction if very perilous, and likely to tank a campaign.

Separately, this article is why I have got a bit of a bad reputation in the OSR community for always harping on the obsession with only B/X and ignoring the CMI is really hollowing out something critical from the game.

Birthright and BECMI (and ACKS today) are closest to the wargame roots. The game has so much depth when you add in the factions and strategy. With or without warfare, that scope changes everything in favor of the players' choices making a difference. It's not the same game without them

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